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Gnome
04-14-2005, 10:10 AM
The US border with Mexico is one of the most unguarded and porous on the planet. This is to expedite Mexico’s
biggest export: New Americans.

But this addresses Illegal Aliens-

This serves not only to provide cheap labor to the corporations but also supplies votes for the Democrats.
In post 9-11 America it is foolishness. In addition to the masses of exploited illegals that drive down wages, water down the culture, and bankrupt welfare coffers and hospitals, bleeding money to Mexico while not paying taxes. The masses of drugs that come over the border to fuel an expensive (in terms of money and lives) drug war. The fact that ANYONE could walk over with a harmful arsenal proves that the average, fat, stupid American is more concerned with a ball than the life of their families.

One small group recently went to exercise their Constitutional right to peaceable assembly and public protest. Interesting how the ACLU, who is 'out to fight for the rights of the average joe' has condemned these patriots for excercizing those very rights.

It's a sad day when the lawmakers side with the lawbreakers....



[COLOR=MAGENTA]Army reservist accused of detaining 7 immigrants
Robert Anglen and Susan Carroll
The Arizona Republic
Apr. 13, 2005 12:00 AM
A lone Army reservist accused of holding seven Mexican nationals at gunpoint this week at a desolate Arizona rest stop has renewed concerns about vigilante justice and violence along the Arizona-Mexico border.

The arrest of Sgt. Patrick Haab, 24, comes as various civilian groups embark on self-described border-patrol missions to target undocumented workers and help stop the flow of illegal immigration along the busiest illegal crossing on the Southwest border.

Haab, an Iraq war veteran, was apparently acting on his own when sheriff's deputies say he saw seven men pile into a sport utility vehicle on Interstate 8 and ordered them to lie on the ground or be shot. But Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio said his actions were dangerous and illegal, underscoring the risks posed by citizens patrolling the border and taking the law into their own hands.

"Even law enforcement has to have probable cause before taking people out of their cars and telling them to lie on the ground. . . . He threatened to kill them," Arpaio said. "He did not have the right to do what he did. How did he know they were illegal aliens?"

Haab declined requests to be interviewed Tuesday at a Maricopa County jail where he was being held on a $10,000 cash bond.

A civilian border patrol, dubbed the Minuteman Project, started a media frenzy this month in southern Arizona by announcing that more than 1,000 volunteers planned to conduct a monthlong stakeout of the U.S.-Mexican border. Organizers were quick to denounce Haab's actions.

"What the man did certainly was wrong," said Jim Gilchrist, Minuteman Project organizer. "He should have called the Border Patrol. His weapon should have been his cellphone."

Gilchrist, a Vietnam veteran, added that although he did not know Haab personally, he hoped the government would consider the circumstances related to his military service.

"He didn't shoot anybody, but he did feel he had to protect his country. I hope the charges will get dropped. I think he's probably learned his lesson," Gilchrist said.

Eleanor Eisenberg, executive director of the ACLU of Arizona, said she is concerned about private citizens acting as border agents.

"Groups that are down along the border don't have a right to act as if they are the Border Patrol, and they don't have the right to detain migrants," she said. "We understand that people feel that the government isn't doing its job, but that really means you have to use the political process."

Arpaio said he did not believe Haab's actions were coincidental to the Minuteman Project. "You don't go around pulling guns on people," Arpaio said. "Being illegal is not a serious crime. You can't go to jail for being an illegal alien. . . . You can only be deported."

Deputies who arrested Haab on Sunday reported that he used his car to block the suspected immigrants from leaving the rest stop and ordered them to exit the vehicle and get onto the ground. Deputies said Haab "ordered" another driver to help him and gave the driver a second gun to hold on the immigrants while he called police. Before sheriff's deputies and officials with the Border Patrol arrived on the scene, the second driver returned the gun to Haab and left the rest stop. Authorities are trying to locate him.

The immigrants, all undocumented workers, said they were afraid for their lives and asked to press charges against Haab, who is being held on seven counts of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.

Deputies who arrested Haab indicated on jail forms that he was "mentally disturbed." But Haab's longtime friend said he sounded rational and collected when they talked by phone after his arrest.

"He sounded like he normally does," said Mike Cline, 23, of Mesa. "He sounded like he does when he is dealing with a problem, like, this is a situation and we have to deal with it."

Cline, who runs a software development company, said he grew up with Haab in Indiana. He is worried that his friend could become a victim of politics and that law-enforcement officials will make an example of him because of the border situation.

"I don't want to see him put in jail," Cline said. "He didn't go off and kill anybody."

He said his friend acted like a soldier, assessing the decision and taking quick action, just like he was trained to do.

Cline said Haab was driving back from San Diego, where he sold a rare dog to a breeder, when he pulled over to help a motorist at the Sentinel rest stop 30 miles west of Gila Bend.

Cline said Haab is a "very typical and normal guy" who liked to carry handguns and often wore a Glock pistol in a holster.

"He pretty much carried the Glock all of the time when he had it," Cline said, adding that the gun, which he recently sold, seemed to be a throwback to Haab's military service.

Although Haab returned from Iraq in October and moved to Arizona four months ago, he was already planning a return to active duty and was working as an Army reservist in Deer Valley while preparing for a tour in Afghanistan.

Haab's parents arrived in Phoenix on Tuesday for a planned farewell gathering that has now turned into something else as they try to deal with lawyers and the criminal charges against their son.

Joe Brigman, a Border Patrol spokesman in Yuma, where the seven undocumented immigrants were being held Tuesday afternoon, said the situation with Haab could have been avoided with "a simple phone call."

Brigman echoed comments of top Border Patrol officials when he discouraged civilian patrols, which have sparked criticism from the highest levels of government, including President Bush and Mexican President Vicente Fox.

Mexican authorities are still worried about violence, and on Sunday the National Commission on Human Rights urged Fox to pressure the United States to stop the Minuteman Project.

Such groups "go against the principles of an authentic, democratic state of laws," said José Luis Soberanes Fernández, director of the human rights commission.

The Mexican press calls the Minutemen cazamigrantes, or "migrant hunters."

A fledgling group called the Yuma Patriots this weekend is planning its first patrols in the open desert and sand dunes of Yuma County.

Flash Sharrar, 50, who owns a transmission repair shop in Yuma, formed the group after his son, who also served in Iraq, reported that a group of border bandits assaulted him Easter Sunday at a recreation area along the border.

Still, Sharrar condemned what Haab did.

"Even though they're illegal, you can't hold anybody at gunpoint," he said. "It's against the law." [/COLOR]

Gnome
04-14-2005, 10:18 AM
Some links:

http://www.minutemanproject.com/

http://www.aclu.org/

wutangstan
04-14-2005, 11:59 AM
That's an interesting article, and I don't have the time at the moment to write a decent response, however it certainly provokes a number of questions. I'll get back to it when I have a bit more time.

zokah
04-15-2005, 02:25 AM
I thought a citizen arrest was legal in the States? And that the right to bear arms was protected by the constitiution
But I could be wrong

At times the world does take politcal correctness to extremes

i`m a wannabe
04-15-2005, 05:18 AM
the only advantage the aussie borderline has is the complete encirclement of water,but then they pay alot more to get here illegally .some manage to get a visa and "forget" to go home when it expires

Gnome
04-15-2005, 09:47 AM
citizens arrest used to be legal, but now you would find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit. Some Liberal organization (Like the ACLU) would claim that you violated someones civil rights, even if they WAS commiting a violent crime.

Yes you can keep and bear arms publicly, there are however a wide degree of state regulation. I can wear a leaded weapon in plain site in public in Nevada, Arizona and Utah. I can not enter into most private or public places though. (don't really need to bring a gun into the library generaly). I can't conceal (unless licenced) and I can't drive with a loaded weapon.

But the fallout would almost be prohibative, somebody would call the cops, freak out etc.


My main concerns with the open borders is the fact that ahmed and habib could bring into the US just about anything they wanted. That and I feel that immigrants should come in regulated and legaly. In recent years an influx of Latino criminal gangs (Mara Salvatrucha for example) have come into the US illegally bringing drug gang violence.

These scumfucks dont need to be in this great country!

If someone is going to come here and work and take care of their families (like my ancestors did) I'm all for it. But we dont need the naer do wells.

But the biggest issue I have is the borders represent our elected officials selling out the US in the interest of the Globalist corporations. And that will be the death of our sovereignty and culture.

wutangstan
04-15-2005, 10:10 AM
Right or wrong, the bloke was doing what he felt he had to do, because in his opinion, the authorities weren't doing what he, and every other tax paying American, feels (and pays) for them to do.
Unfortunately, it does set a precedent that if he was allowed to do that because he felt it was the right thing to do, then other people could use that type of justification to get away with things that they felt was the right thing to do.
I probably just repeated what has already been said, so I will add, in my opinion, that if it was me, personally, The only time I would do anything that even looked remotely like a citizens' arrest would be if I, or my family were in any immediate danger, then, I would use all possible (reasonable) force to prevent that danger from manifesting itself. i.e. I'd kick the shit out of 'em. In a reasonably forcefull way.

I've probably gone right of the point there, but nevermind.

Gnome
04-15-2005, 02:52 PM
There is an increasing frustration with many Americans in regards to the border. Many have issues with losing their jobs to migrants legal and not that will work for much less money. Many have problems with the cost to our economy. Many are racist and just dont like Mexicans. And the lack of action from our goverment, in fact the blatant permissability and blessing is whats tickin people off. And what will end up happening in our convoluted upsidedown fast food media/cuture is if somebody speaks out, or heaven forbid freaks and starts shooting wetbacks, the victimology will take over ans they will push even more open borders to 'keep that from happening'.

meanwhile AlQaida laughs and brings over the border suitcase nukes, anthrax, and soldiers to kill the stupid fat yankee pigdogs.


As with that above mentioned liberal victimology, the law often sides with the criminal. If you use deadly force to protect yourself and family, you will have to 'prove' that you where in fear of your life or others lives. If you end up caving somebodys head in with a 9-iron, and busting their ribs and legs and whatnot else up, they can turn around and say you used excessive force. If you shoot somebody and they live, you can be sued. Doesnt matter is the scumbag was robbing your house or lookin to rape your daughter, the PC liberal legal system and activist judges will make you spend thousands to defend yourself in a deadly force case.

Meanwhile the habitual criminal is a 'victim'.

Thats the level of idiocy the US is decending into.

elmtree
04-15-2005, 07:56 PM
[font=Century Gothic][size=3][color=sandybrown]The only border next to me is Canada, eh? I tell ya every time I see one of them Quebec type:mad: ooo I gets so angry. Driving our highways, not speaking english, wanting to secede from Canada.:banghead: [/color][/size][/font][font=Garamond][size=3][color=red]Infecting our airwaves with Celine:drool: (I mean):mad: Dion. National healthcare:tsk: leaving thier front doors unlocked:couto: Protesting our involvement in Iraq on 9/11:grrrr: anniversary. Stupid Loonie and Toonie:bs: coins! [/color][/size][/font]
[font=Garamond][size=3][color=#ff0000][/color][/size][/font]
[font=Century Gothic][size=3][color=darkorchid]I even gotta get a passport to get back into US from there:rolleyes:.[/color][/size][/font]
[font=Century Gothic][size=3][color=#9932cc][/color][/size][/font]
[font=Courier New][size=3][color=yellow]Don't even get me started on Casinos and Tim Hortons[/color][/size][/font]

[font=Garamond][size=3][color=#ff0000][/color][/size][/font]
[font=Garamond][size=3][color=#ff0000][/color][/size][/font]

i`m a wannabe
04-16-2005, 01:04 AM
gnomey you need to dig a big trench across the Rio Grande so the wet backs cant sneak in

zokah
04-16-2005, 02:36 AM
I'm guessing you guys now understand what the natives felt a few hundred years ago

Gnome
04-16-2005, 09:53 AM
aye, Manifest Destiny does have it's bleak past. And civiliazations history is one conquest and mass migration after another. Again, my concern is not the people, they come here to make a better life for themself because it's better than where they came from. Testament to a great nation.

I'm more concerned about the bad men with turbans. And the drugs

And anybody who says eh and aboot too much.

hoosiers

MamaBush
04-16-2005, 03:44 PM
To begin with, when I first read the title of this thread I thought it said "pea cable assembly"....and I sat and wondered what the fuck "pea cable" was....HAHAHA *being serious here*


Anywho.....I say all of the people who were not here originally should be sent back to the countries that their ancestors came from, which means, I would have to cut myself in half and send half of me back to Germany....the other half of me can stay put.

The main concern I have with what the military guy did was....if he had not been arrested, who's to say how many other American's would take the law into their hands and not just detain illegal immigrants, but torture or kill them? I applaud him for keeping his cool and just detaining them, especially since the border partrol between the United States and Mexico has ALWAYS been a sore point with most of us Americans. It's just too big, too unsecure, too easy to cross without getting caught, and when they are caught, they simply go back to Mexico, save some more money, and try it again.

Also....why are they trying to cross the border illegally all the time? Hell, a large amount of our industries and companies have been and are moving all of their operations to Mexico to get away from the high taxes, the labor laws that protect their workers, and having to pay higher wages to Americans. Pretty soon, Americans will be crossing the United States and Mexico border to get any kind of job in Mexico because there won't be any more in the United States...ya ya...that's a bit far fetched, but you never know.....ya know?

zokah
04-16-2005, 08:21 PM
it's called Globalisation.
Hey, you've said you wanna travel internationally so why worry? :D

Gnome
04-16-2005, 09:52 PM
I have not entirely ruled out moving to Mexico, it's the taxes, crime and water that gets in the way. We could cash in our 401k's and such, sell the house and buy muy grande el casa de ranchero, mi amigas en amigos. And the booze is cheap!

Last I was in Cabo san Lucas I was eyeballing the fishing charters for sale. 100k US gets you a 35 foot boat, all the gear and dock, licence etc.

Get up before the sun, take your ever-present charters out to have a go at bull Dorado, Marlin, Cabrilla and yellowtail. Pull in and pay the local imps a fiver to clean the catch. Sip sweet scorpion honey as the sun sets.

Then head up the hill and party at Hagars place!

alas but a fever dream.

i`m a wannabe
04-17-2005, 06:13 AM
what mama has stated a few posts back it has already happen here in oz...border is way to big for the navy to patrol and companies are bailing out of here like no tomorrow